Distributed Governance Salon

Distributed Governance: Thrivability, Symmathesy, and Networked Organisms

The purpose of Salon 1 of the Distributed Governance Series was to ground salon collaborators in a common language about distributed governance. Salon 2-5 will delve more deeply into specifics while salon 6 will bring it all together.

After welcoming people to this session, we jumped back to remind people of ideas discussed in the previous Salon on Thrivability. We quickly scanned through some systems and living systems language including Anti-fragility, Symmathesy, Polarity Management, and spectrums as well things like paradox. A big theme for us lately has been Course Correction. We also touched on the specifically human parts like Tricksters and Irrational Humans that Care (rather than the hyper rational, homoeconomicus). Jean pointed out that we can often get lost in which conversation we are having and names a spectrum from ontological to the nitty gritty.

After reviewing what will be included in this series and upcoming Salons, definitions of “distributed” and “governance” were proposed.

We took some time to share with each other what we each thought it was and why we were here, then came into groups of four before sharing as a whole.

Jean linked in the idea of Network Organisms, a topic we have been exploring as the theme of the month, this brought up the question of whether we even are an individual or a network already. And then how we might increase choicefulness and agency in a network for better results. Speaking of choicefulness, the behavioral economics term is choice architecture. We explored together some of the dimensions that might be considered when shaping choice architecture.

From there we went to what freedoms create safety, borrowing from Graeber and Wengrow’s Dawn of Everything: to disagree or disobey, to leave or walkaway, and to form new social forms. With that safety in mind, what then can bring us together? One angle might include common ground (shared principles and beliefs) or common purpose or common defense. Another angle might explore Belonging, Becoming, Believing, Being, and Beauty.

With the big picture “yes” and “no” covered, we went over an example of simple principles for organizing, ala Elinor Ostrom’s research on commoning. Then we discussed whether economics already imposes some assumptions, which may show up even in the fringes. And whether knowledge commons have similar constraints and scarcity as physical commons which flowed into our review of the session and notes for next time. After that we had a casual chat including things like, should this be arranged in a fashion more akin to distributed governance models itself.

10:05:17 From Herman Home to Everyone: Hi everybody
10:05:32 From Nadia to Everyone: Hallo 🙂
10:06:07 From ilan katin to Everyone: hello
10:07:12 From Lenara to Everyone:Lol
10:07:49 From Lenara to Everyone: Bea mentioned she is on a plane and might not have wifi so she will appreciate having a recording
10:10:07 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Hello all…
10:11:19 From Nadia to Everyone: :))
10:13:05 From David Reed to Everyone: We might want to consider that the layering is upside down – the ontological may not be real at all, and the nitty-gritty is all we really have….
10:14:16 From Herman Home to Everyone: The nitty gritty is at least very close to reality 🙂
10:14:50 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: oh wow this is not what I expected – and so much what I am needing
10:15:01 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: it exists! thanks so much
10:15:08 From Sid Sthalekar to Everyone: 🙂
10:15:11 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: looove!!!
10:15:46 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: ❤️
10:29:35 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: yes I heard some cultures wouldn’t agree that they think with their mind
10:32:02 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: There are several “Illusion of Self” books, I will find out which from Jean after this salon and share with the group for those interested.
10:33:33 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Nudge: https://bookshop.org/books/nudge-the-final-edition/9780143137009
10:33:35 From Nadia to Everyone: Going round in circles :)))
10:33:48 From ilan katin to Everyone: nudge was a good read
10:34:08 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Of course the translation of Anatha (non -elf) in Pali from Buddhism…
10:34:24 From Nadia to Everyone: Choreography?
10:35:06 From Herman Home to Everyone: Yes , time axis
10:35:38 From Guy James to Everyone:
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1200/1*MTpmiI05jspy3IJNSKiehQ.png
10:36:12 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: indeed
10:36:18 From Nadia to Everyone: Choreography: “ a design than moves in time”
10:36:22 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: indeed
10:36:27 From Herman Home to Everyone: Don’t fall into the trap of introducing feedback loops for everything. Two counteracting feedforward loops can also be extremely adaptive and stable
10:36:56 From David Reed to Everyone: I’m having a very strange Zoom app behavior. I can see, but can’t unmute or show video. Will switch devices.
10:37:10 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: ok, David, see you soon.
10:37:14 From Herman Home to Everyone: async versus sync yes
10:37:33 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Time travel!!!
10:37:58 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Performance: by the form
10:38:36 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: improvisation
10:39:40 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Structured improvisation
10:40:28 From Herman Home to Everyone: Jazz….
10:40:43 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Awareness of the hidden structures
10:40:57 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Training and improvisation
10:40:59 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Dimensionally, the improv vs structure feels like the gradient of need for a of specificty of outcome, or perhaps the level at which the purpose applies to the choosing.
10:41:56 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Open awareness… open to everything..
10:42:22 From Herman Home to Everyone: For me improvisation in a group means a high degree of sensitivity to others
10:43:03 From ilan katin to Everyone: thank you all kindly. this is very enriching . have to go to piano lesson now . until next time
10:43:10 From ilan katin to Everyone: excellent book!!!
10:43:31 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Enjoy your lesson Ilan!
10:44:24 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Pan awareness
10:44:35 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: @Marlon, hahaha!
10:45:02 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Maybe cultural identity is the same as common ground.
10:45:48 From Nadia to Everyone: Mmm Eric can you elaborate on that?
10:46:39 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Our culture seems to be a set of things we can stand on. They ground us.
10:46:45 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: freedom and antifragility – neither hierarchital nor decentralized (with hubs) has those options
10:47:33 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Jean said “Tragedy of unregulated free markets masquerading as the commons”
10:48:52 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Generative commons?
10:49:52 From David Reed to Everyone: I strongly agree with the idea that adopting a model before understanding its limitations and assumptions is dangerous.
10:50:06 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: In digital distributed governance, the main rival good that I experience is attention.
10:50:10 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: indeed
10:50:16 From Herman Home to Everyone: Indeed
10:50:41 From David Reed to Everyone: Ostrom’s assumptions are not clearly applicable to most societal systems – she assumes free markets in “goods”
10:50:50 From Herman Home to Everyone: In open source it is the same: my time and energy and attention is limited
10:51:01 From Nadia to Everyone: And time/ resources for stewardship e.g of open data repositories
10:51:35 From Nadia to Everyone: Or even wikipedia entries
10:52:39 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: yes – this is what we’re seeing that the source is abundant if we take care of our “selves”
10:55:01 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Care = cure= curatorial processes, economy and curation..
10:55:24 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Exactly. Trade = relationship os over because of equal value. So the fundamental idea is about a transaction that completes relation rather than creates it.
10:56:45 From Herman Home to Everyone: +1
10:57:59 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: so those 3 are implemented in cryptospace: rage-quit, fork, etc. it hasn’t become a better place
10:57:59 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: “The tragedy of the peers”
10:58:31 From Nadia to Everyone: Also freedom to exclude?
10:58:52 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: maybe yes, that we don’t fill that free space with plain old trade exchanges
10:59:09 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: oh yes: “token-gated X”
10:59:52 From Guy James to Everyone: cybernetics comes from the Greek for ‘navigator’
11:01:21 From Guy James to Everyone: could you also save and post this chat to MN please?
11:01:38 From Guy James to Everyone: thanks, I join from browser so I can’t save it
11:03:04 From Herman Home to Everyone: I will try to make it very tangible in my logistics talk
11:04:05 From Guy James to Everyone: actually with blockchain it is quite irreversible sometimes
11:07:11 From Herman Home to Everyone: I will have to check out in 3 minutes
11:08:39 From Herman Home to Everyone: +1
11:09:03 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: What makes a brass tack, brass – what makes something practical?
11:09:05 From Herman Home to Everyone: Bye, the to leave but…..CU next time
11:09:34 From Nadia to Everyone: How do you wave a hand in here lol
11:09:49 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: David Reed: “Here for the pragmatics also known as – how to build and maintain a distributed system that doesn’t blow up.”
11:10:44 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: @nadia click the three dots on the right
11:11:23 From Nadia to Everyone: Ok I give up – waving a hand
11:11:40 From Guy James to Everyone: click Reactions then Raise Hand
11:11:46 From jean m russell to Everyone: I gotcha Nadia
11:13:04 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Gregory Bateson: https://aeon.co/essays/gregory-bateson-changed-the-way-we-think-about-changing-ourselves
11:15:09 From Guy James to Everyone: the freedom to fork, walkaway, ragequit etc is important as well
11:15:33 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Definitely figure it out along the way
11:15:43 From Lenara to Everyone: Alternate between both
11:15:50 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Only when the clicking doesn’t work, then read me manual
11:16:11 From Lenara to Everyone: Yes I’m with Sparrow
11:16:17 From Erica Blair to Everyone: Click around
11:16:27 From Sebnem Rusitschka to Everyone: click around but I had already many
11:16:34 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Click around and find out.
11:16:45 From Guy James to Everyone: skim the manual, click around, troubleshoot with manual if necessary
11:16:46 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Plug and play….!!
11:16:55 From Lenara to Everyone: I hate tutorials
11:17:40 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Plug and play contexts
11:17:42 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: I do the click around and read the manual after and go “oh, it would have been so much easier if I’d read this first!”
11:17:56 From Nadia to Everyone: Complexity tolerance
11:18:15 From Guy James to Everyone: if the manual was google translated from Chinese I search for youtube tutorials
11:18:46 From Guy James to Everyone: for IKEA furniture I carefully read the manual first, if not bad things can happen
11:18:53 From jean m russell to Everyone: exactly
11:19:09 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: context matters with the click around and find out crowd
11:19:15 From Guy James to Everyone: yes
11:19:20 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Like double-dutch. When do I jump in so I don’t disrupt everything.
11:19:28 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: The point of an infinite game is to keep playing & keep as many players in play as possible
11:19:39 From Nadia to Everyone: So maybe a useful orientation parameter is chaos/complexity tolerance
11:19:51 From jean m russell to Everyone: Yes and risk tolerance
11:19:56 From Sid Sthalekar to Everyone: Thank you all, it’s late here in Singapore. Have to drop off now 🙂 See everyone soon!
11:20:07 From Sid Sthalekar to Everyone: Gnite
11:20:09 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Bye Sid
11:20:14 From Guy James to Everyone: gn
11:20:18 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Bye, Sid!
11:20:19 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: I need to go to a Kernel session… thank you !!
11:20:28 From jean m russell to Everyone: thanks
11:20:31 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Bye Sid 👋🏽
11:22:29 From Nadia to Everyone: Collaborative Manual making I have found to be very useful
11:22:58 From Nadia to Everyone: In helping people be happy/ feel included in distributed teams and organisations
11:24:00 From David Reed to Everyone: I love the diversity with commonality here in this space.
11:24:13 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thank you David
11:24:16 From Nadia to Everyone: +1 David
11:24:38 From Nadia to Everyone: I don’t really understand this word “governance”
11:24:52 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: *snaps* re: commonality diversity.
11:25:12 From Nadia to Everyone: Is it management? Control? Choreography? Common space? What?
11:25:22 From David Reed to Everyone: +1 on the problematic aspect governance term, coordination seems better.
11:25:28 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Imma: giving value to more than just want can be counted.
11:25:40 From Guy James to Everyone: dios no sabe, el viento se junta_
11:25:43 From Guy James to Everyone: ?
11:25:46 From David Reed to Everyone: But in this group, I accept that governance means more coordination than ruling
11:25:57 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: Dios los cría y ellos se juntan
11:26:08 From Guy James to Everyone: ok gracias
11:26:16 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: https://www.liberatingstructures.com/
11:27:00 From jean m russell to Everyone: 1,2, 4, all. https://www.liberatingstructures.com/1-1-2-4-all/
11:27:08 From Nadia to Everyone: This feels very culturally specific to a demographic
11:27:24 From Nadia to Everyone: Even agreeing that facilitation is a thing is not a given
11:29:03 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: As the tech facilitator, I was with myself the whole time – introvert’s dream.
11:29:10 From David Reed to Everyone: I will have to leave in a minute…
11:29:35 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: See you next time, David. Lovely to get to know you.
11:29:43 From Nadia to Everyone: Ok how porous is this conversation wrt to people inside this chat and the range of people with whom we interact
11:29:47 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Bye David
11:30:14 From Guy James to Everyone: thanks all!!
11:30:36 From Lenara to Everyone: Thanks

Distributed Governance: Decision Science in Networks

Jamison Day, PhD completed doctoral work on Decision Science. He is dedicated to improving coordination among people and organizations. He applies complexity principles to design socio-technical solutions supporting disaster relief supply chains.

Jamison opens with a twist on what distributed means, suggesting that there is a spectrum between centralized and decentralized where “distributed” can take many shapes along that spectrum. Perhaps, he provokes us to think, the original network diagram images might be seen in other ways. This is the original:

And he claims all of the images are distributed, they differ in how they are distributed.

He goes on to talk about coordination, suggesting that governance offers a meta level of coordination. So he will focus on what coordination is and how it works. Jamison offers a bunch of C words: coordination, communication, cooperation, collaboration, and competition (the silent C).

Competition can be a triggering word for some of us. He explores coopitition (cooperative competition)  as a way to relate to this. This might be important work for us to consider – what shadows loom in competition and are we acknowledging it where it gets hidden and without glorifying it either?

Jamison distinguishes between the C words: is there agreement on context? on methods? on purpose/objectives?  Then he provides a matrix for defining different strategies for coordination, concluding that they end up being all improvisation yet vary about whether there are more or less rules and more or less centralized.

Asking what the critical dimensions are for coordination in human systems, Jamison offers four:

  1. Data/info management,
  2. Resource Allocation,
  3. Performance Feedback, and
  4. Trust & Reputation.

Next, Jamison goes to the mathematical relations of networks of different types and which structural approaches to coordination have which dynamics.

From there he concludes that attempts to centralize are failing, given exponential growth of environmental change and how it is outpacing our linear methods of adaptation in centralized structures. Thus hubs of power must adopt new peer to peer technologies for production, consumption, and sensemaking.

Several members have issues with the assumptions around production/consumption and transactional frameworks: what is it that we humans do beyond and instead of those frames? A discussion followed, sensing where we have alignment and where not, in surprising ways.

This also sets us up for our next conversation with Nadia about running distributed organizations, and how her organization, Edgeryders, which is something of an anarchist hacker collective, interacts with a wide range of differently shaped actors successfully (government institutions, for example).

09:01:13 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: ok! Good morning!
09:01:19 From ilan to Everyone: coffee?
09:01:54 From ilan to Everyone: Sparrow!
09:04:13 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/83655647413?pwd=b3YrYzFMM2NUVjByS1dWcGhIR1BBUT09#success
09:05:08 From ilan to Everyone: Petra!
09:14:17 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Serial vs Parallel?
09:20:20 From solsista to Everyone: I have currently the challenge to host multiple working styles .. is coordination doomed from the get go?
09:20:21 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Communication seems like it equals “same meaning”
09:20:41 From solsista to Everyone: only people with same methods can cooperate?
09:21:44 From Erica Blair to Everyone: Can you please go back to the definition slide for coordination terms
09:21:47 From Sid to Everyone: Open
09:21:53 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Open
09:21:57 From beatrizramos to Everyone: open
09:21:58 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: open
09:22:01 From ilan to Everyone: open
09:22:15 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: @Dave: Both serial & parallel for sure
09:23:00 From Erica Blair to Everyone: Oops I meant the slide for communication, cooperation, collaboration
09:23:37 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Schmactenberger equates the warn on sense making as a pollution of the information ecosystem.
09:24:42 From Guy James to Everyone: “first casualty of war is the truth”
09:28:05 From jean m russell to Everyone: Part of this feels like it is about the “efficiency/effectiveness” what does that mean – for what or whom?
09:28:16 From jean m russell to Everyone: Erica had a question?
09:28:43 From Erica Blair to Everyone: I did but I didn’t realize the presentation was going to go on, and thought maybe my question would be answered then
09:29:08 From jean m russell to Everyone: Yes, we have some more to go. 🙂
09:29:17 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: @solsista: I would submit that “cooperation” means that entities are agreeing on what methods to use together. They may not both use the same methods, but they do agree that each will use them (perhaps)?
09:30:16 From solsista to Everyone: makes sense thanks!
09:30:53 From solsista to Everyone: I must watch the rest in recording unfortunately – but this is super insightful, hope we get to ask some questions asynch, too
09:30:58 From solsista to Everyone: thank you”
09:31:04 From jean m russell to Everyone: Yes. Thanks!
09:36:08 From Guy James to Everyone: spectrum between free jazz and conventional orchestral
09:37:23 From jean m russell to Everyone: Agree, we could trouble some of these because each has a range. I am curious what titles others might give.
09:37:37 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Free jazz vs charts
09:38:12 From Howard Silverman to Everyone: The anticommunication imperative: If you seek the new, compose asynchronicity.
09:38:43 From Guy James to Everyone: generative music is interesting in this context too – put in rules and the computer produces music based on those
09:39:45 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Theatre?
09:40:07 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Flash Mob
09:40:16 From jean m russell to Everyone: mmmm
09:42:08 From ilan to Everyone: we can all agree on that ?
09:42:21 From Guy James to Everyone: that sachet represents terrible value, I wonder who got the surplus..?
09:42:27 From jean m russell to Everyone: Yes please, but we also don’t need to
09:44:19 From jean m russell to Everyone: Multi-criteria…. Nice word for not over-prioritizing money
09:46:28 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Is there a link to that last slide with the scales?
09:46:36 From ilan to Everyone: i took a screen shot of it
09:46:45 From jean m russell to Everyone: Hopefully Jamison will provide the whole set
09:46:51 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Thank you 🙏🏽
09:47:47 From jean m russell to Everyone: Never handicapped spot, but totally parked in front of a fire hydrant
09:48:22 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: I’ve always had great bosses and mentors
09:48:28 From ilan to Everyone: yes if the rules are arbitrary ?
09:48:31 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: And colleagues
09:48:32 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Perceived path of least resistance? 🤔
09:48:38 From jean m russell to Everyone: You are lucky Imma!
09:48:39 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: I’m lucky
09:49:06 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Yes I am!!!
09:49:28 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Code is law
09:49:34 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Also usually no one between boss and me so….
09:49:51 From ilan to Everyone: all my bosses were fools . evidence ? they hired me .
09:50:03 From jean m russell to Everyone: Hilarious Ilan
09:50:09 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Infinite game is improv? Finite games ‘can’ be orchestrations?
09:50:10 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Or me boss…
09:50:49 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Does that matrix have any overlay with cynefin?
09:50:52 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot/a-tour-around-the-latest-cynefin-iteration/
09:51:15 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Or synergy? 🤔 structurally for design principles?
09:51:34 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks for the link Turquoise. Curious about the latest iteration
09:51:56 From Collin Mcclain to Everyone: Money is trust issuance
09:52:10 From beatrizramos to Everyone: Funny that now I agree with everything 😄
09:52:16 From ilan to Everyone: the money is summoned by the information ?
09:52:25 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: Already in Adam Smith: money (value signals) is vital information to coordinate in a market
09:52:51 From Howard Silverman to Everyone: alternative to cynefin: https://www.cfkurtz.com/confluence/#
09:52:54 From Guy James to Everyone: money is mainly trust and reputation, the question is, trust in who and reputation of who or what
09:53:18 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: “everything above the bottom line in a P&L is information more than money”
09:53:19 From jean m russell to Everyone: Interesting Beatriz 🙂
09:55:34 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: what is P&L?
09:55:43 From jean m russell to Everyone: Profit and Loss
09:55:48 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: Profit and Loss statement
09:56:02 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: and where are P&Ls normally found?
09:56:11 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: Businesses
09:56:30 From jean m russell to Everyone: In accounting portions of businesses
09:56:53 From Guy James to Everyone: the more we move to a P2P model the more everything will become connected, the rate of change will increase and the less utility centralised orgs will have
09:57:41 From jean m russell to Everyone: Yes Guy. I agree. And, all “more and more” has limits to look at and consider.
09:58:14 From Guy James to Everyone: yes, not necessarily saying it’s a good thing, just that it seems to be a thing
09:58:20 From jean m russell to Everyone: yes
09:59:08 From jean m russell to Everyone: No end state.. evolvability
09:59:33 From ilan to Everyone: faces not slides ! 🙂
09:59:46 From ilan to Everyone: sliding faces
10:03:37 From Guy James to Everyone: the people created the technology of the time which defined the structures and then in a feedback loop they shaped the people
10:06:22 From Guy James to Everyone: sociopaths get into systems and then optimise for their goals which ends up producing more sociopaths
10:07:21 From jean m russell to Everyone: Nods Guy
10:07:34 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: http://emergingleaderlabs.org/Gameshifting_Overview
10:08:10 From Erica Blair to Everyone: By grammar, you mean the order of things?
10:08:23 From Guy James to Everyone: the rules of the game?
10:08:36 From jean m russell to Everyone: Eric talks about grammar as the composable parts that create an assemblage
10:09:06 From jean m russell to Everyone: What, in his case is a noun and how do nouns get used with other parts
10:10:05 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: @Eric: I sense that when I mentioned “mechanisms”, there’s significant overlap with what I’ve heard you speak of with “grammars”
10:10:40 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Also… that evolution that Jamison mentions needs some space to play, like Eric is saying. Where it is safe to try things out to find those news things that are a better fit.
That seems to be importantly lacking in many descriptions of both the problems we face and solutions offered.
10:10:52 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Meaning?
10:11:07 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Coordinating around meaning as a resource?
10:11:23 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Grammar to me is the frame in which expression are possible, where expressions can be words, organisms, organizations, or what have you.
10:13:41 From Guy James to Everyone: “To look at is to look for. It is to bring the limitations with us. ‘Nature has no outline. Imagination has.” – Blake
10:14:07 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: @Jamison Grammar is not mechanism for me. Mechanism involves embodied process. Grammar defines/guides what gets embodied by holding the dimensional possibility.
10:14:15 From Guy James to Everyone: “What makes us feel liberated is not total freedom, but rather living in a set of limitations that we have created and prescribed for ourselves.” – Andrea Zittel
10:17:14 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: @Eric: I’ve never fully understood “grammar” as you use the term 🙂, but I do get the sense there is some really significant intersection between what we’ve been thinking!
10:17:54 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: 100%
10:19:16 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
10:19:54 From jean m russell to Everyone: Imma: Journey?
10:20:04 From beatrizramos to Everyone: Process vs outcomes
10:20:20 From jean m russell to Everyone: Becoming, Belonging, Beauty, Belonging, Being…
10:20:25 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: How we do what we do is more important than what we do.
10:20:38 From Guy James to Everyone: https://mirror.xyz/hq.spengrah.eth/3rogxz8MYh5SEIdCCzUXWY7eiKAs63QSgsPh-AfIRyk “Goodhardt’s Forest”
10:20:46 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: From C words to B words….
10:24:40 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: I believe that one of the “hello worlds” is DADA.art
10:25:03 From ilan to Everyone: more of a ‘jello world’
10:25:11 From jean m russell to Everyone: Jello. Love it
10:25:20 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: https://advaya.co/watch/jaya-klara-brekke-designing-and-configuring-decentralisms
10:27:01 From jean m russell to Everyone: The screen is black to me?
10:27:23 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: I was going to say that then thought maybe it was on purpose 😛
10:27:39 From Guy James to Everyone: nihilist screen sharing
10:27:55 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: blank slate
10:30:56 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Yes, grammars live in nested hiearachies. One level creates a grammatic space at another.
10:31:58 From Sid to Everyone: Thanks Jamison! Much appreciated 🙂
10:37:32 From jean m russell to Everyone: I am having a bit of relaxation around this idea of competition… because it need not be the elbow jarring version on the basketball court… it can be two collaborators trying different things and growing each other through their difference
10:38:25 From Guy James to Everyone: have to go, thanks all for this great session! 🙂
10:38:30 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Guy
10:38:35 From ilan to Everyone: Thank you guy!
10:38:49 From Brad to Everyone: Have to run. Great stuff. Thanks Jamison et al
10:39:00 From ilan to Everyone: Thank you Brad!
10:39:22 From Collin Mcclain to Everyone: @Jean – Something like cooperative or collaborative GANs
10:39:26 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: The difference, for me, between collaboration and competition is the existence of a scarce (even artificially scarce) resource.
10:39:35 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Collin
10:41:12 From Collin Mcclain to Everyone: @Sparrow, I feel like it is exactly with scarce resources where collaboration is needed. We can safely compete in the realm of abundance.
10:41:18 From jean m russell to Everyone: @sparrow, Melissa was reminding me of our delight in finding four leaf clovers… and how sometimes I want to stay in the field longer because she found more than I have. She teases me about competing on it. I am not trying to look in her patches of clover. I am just nudged to find to the best of my ability.
10:41:48 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Weird is good!
10:42:00 From ilan to Everyone: amen
10:42:12 From jean m russell to Everyone: Sufficiency? How is a threshold of enough related here?
10:42:56 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Definitely agree that cooperation is the better strategy in respect to scarce resources.
10:44:31 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Have to go. See you next time everyone!
10:44:34 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: @Turquoise, have you been on Dada yet? If not, please come by and take a look
10:44:37 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Dave
10:44:38 From ilan to Everyone: Thanks Dave!
10:44:44 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: I used to search or 4 leaf clovers with my grandmother, it is something that I have many fond memories of. I remember as child wanting that activity to never end. So perhaps it is time that is the only real scarce resource?
10:45:14 From jean m russell to Everyone: Mmm yes Sparrow. I feel that
10:46:01 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: NGOs? (Non-gov organizations – i.e. non-profit orgs)
10:47:13 From jean m russell to Everyone: Does difference have to competitive? Does competition have to lead to individual winners and losers or can it be an infinite game dynamic?
10:48:13 From ilan to Everyone: always felt more rewarding to achieve something in a collective than individually
10:49:41 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: I definitely don’t think difference is innately competitive. There is enormous diversity in DADA, without any competition whatsoever.
10:50:26 From jean m russell to Everyone: Valdis Krebs, my mentor on social network analysis, says, “connect on your similarities, benefit from your differences” and looking at what the optimal zones of difference and similarity are for good relationship
10:51:21 From jean m russell to Everyone: Intrinsic v extrinsic motivations
10:51:31 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: With the infinite game analogy, if someone ‘wins’ everyone wins, yes? Because the game continues. <3 10:53:52 From jean m russell to Everyone: Yes, I think so. 10:55:35 From Collin Mcclain to Everyone: Sadly have to drop off. This is a lovely conversation. Thank you all. 10:55:45 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Collin 10:55:45 From ilan to Everyone: Thank you collin! 10:56:00 From jean m russell to Everyone: Hi Howard.🙂 10:59:47 From jean m russell to Everyone: Turquoise, you may want to ask Nadia about the ethnography work of SSNA that Edgeryders is becoming known for. 11:02:22 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Thank you Jean 11:04:21 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: Can someone provide any references/links to info about the “DADA” community that has been referenced several times? I’m unfamiliar with this community. 11:04:43 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: The platform is dada.art
11:04:46 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: https://powerdada.medium.com/the-invisible-economy-db46897d4f07
11:04:55 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Dada.nyc is the initial platform
11:05:02 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: https://twitter.com/PowerDada
11:05:03 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: @powerdada on twitter
11:05:25 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Look for the posts in Medium
11:06:04 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Yes, I was just getting the medium link! https://powerdada.medium.com/
11:07:55 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: It is also very relational, I think. For example, I haven’t had many interactions (yet) with Imma, but I trust her implicitly because people I trust totally, trust her.
11:08:59 From ilan to Everyone: likewise . and if i reflect on it long enough i could probably make some points as to why.
11:09:23 From ilan to Everyone: but maybe there’s also specific things that one trusts a person and in others where they may not ?
11:09:30 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: I am going to need to go to another call. Thank you everyone! This discussion is wonderful! I look forward to watching the remaining on video.
11:09:36 From ilan to Everyone: Thank you Sparrow!
11:11:49 From beatrizramos to Everyone: But we are also trusting the platform
11:12:23 From ilan to Everyone: trust clusters
11:16:03 From ilan to Everyone: the sauron delusion
11:16:25 From jean m russell to Everyone: Lol. Love that: the Sauron delusion
11:16:41 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Beware of Sauron’s eyeeeee!!!!!!
11:17:03 From ilan to Everyone: don’t get me started about that eye
11:17:38 From jean m russell to Everyone: My son made me tofu. My apologies for eating this gift with you and not sharing it
11:18:23 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Don’t worry Jean i just hid to have a sandwich with the tribe
11:18:28 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: you redeemed “circling back”
11:18:39 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Not industrial bread
11:18:42 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: LOL
11:20:41 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: This is starting to feel like a Black Mirror episode
11:23:01 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Ilan and I we chatting without realizing we were doing it in private so you just missed worthy Ilan’s ideas
11:23:17 From jean m russell to Everyone: awww
11:23:37 From jean m russell to Everyone: Me too
11:23:41 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: “Auto-incorrect” 🙂
11:23:42 From ilan to Everyone: auto correct hates me
11:23:53 From ilan to Everyone: so i turn it off
11:23:59 From ilan to Everyone: just like notifications
11:24:09 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: sensing trust
11:25:05 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Goodharts law meets Ashby’s law of requisite variety.
11:25:18 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: What we said the other day about non quantifiable “items” “benefits” “whatever”, because they are non quantiafible they are discarded!!!!
11:25:45 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: +1 Eric!
11:26:54 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Meeee toooo!!
11:27:24 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Also saw your reply above. Thank you 🙂
11:28:59 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: A professor friend of mine once said: “The mind can only absorb so long as the bottom can endure”
11:29:08 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: lol
11:29:28 From Imma Turbau to Everyone: Lol

Distributed Governance: Running Distributed Organizations

Nadia leads the strategic development for Edgeryders Environment and the Climate unit and was born in Sweden to African parents, raised in Europe and Asia. She is an engineer and designer and specializes in building platforms for citizen engagement and distributed collaboration.

Nadia’s mission is to boost our collective ability to live and work well in times of upheaval. She lives at the intersections of tech, culture and large scale crises.

Nadia trained as an engineer in Human Computer Interaction, and specialists in getting geographically and demographically diverse groups of individuals to make sense of messy issues. How to prepare populations for upheaval, the coming decades of environmental collapses & changes we can no longer stop.

She posits that if we are to make any headway we need three things: Multiplicity, Speed and Convergence.

  • Multiplicity and Convergence: Slow, organic change

  • Convergence and Speed: Effective Centralism

  • Speed and Multiplicity: Decentralized Autonomous Action lives here. So does a lot of duplication of efforts.

The sweet spot is where all three overlap: To do the range of things needed, at the speed necessary while still converging on impact.  Distributed but Networked Cooperation lives there.

She believes using tech and automation to facilitate this makes sense to explore.

And, she asks how do you do this in a way that enhances day to day wellbeing of individuals and communities. Especially for the most vulnerable.

  1. Can truly distributed collaboration and governance be trusted with important things (read: critical functions in society) at scale over long periods of time?

  2. How to navigate power? Society attacks what it cannot understand. Ultimately you are up against physical violence, whether its from the state or armed neighbors.

  3. How do we ensure that human autonomy and agency are not engineered out of our system?

Edgeryders thinks one key is to establish and spread a humanist approach to data: Nothing about or for humans, without humans.

She says:

As the collective intelligence company, our business is deep listening and participatory sense-making. We use anthropology techniques to seed and encode conversational data. We model these conversations as living, networks of interactions that carry meaning. We turn them into beautiful, intuitive visualizations that evolve over time. These are then interpreted together with the participants.

In Edgeryders practice, they have developed a methodologically rigorous approach for deep listening and sense making:

  • States/power cannot deal with anecdotes. No small group of actors can see the whole picture, no matter how smart they are. In practice, organize activities for groups to exchange and make sense of experiences e.g on stewardship of Immaterial, Relational and Physical assets. Edgeryders developed their approach and tech through research projects with universities etc.

  • Edgeryders approach is to increase legibility and provide functional interfaces for interaction and dialogue. Embed decision makers, and media in different feedback loops with environment. Through immersive experiences like UnMonastery.

Nadia also explained how culture contributes:

We also build a culture robust to capture.  Keep it calm, quiet and authentic – no bombastic claims, no pitching. We don’t care about opinions. We are not a democracy. Know to be quiet. To get radical new things done in policy or politics, you need to stay under the radar. Once things get too big, they draw attention and attacks. We have managed to have policy adopted at European level, written adopted strategies for ministries of foreign affairs, and shaped large EU funding programs.

Here are some of her insights for doing this work, based on over a decade of experience:

  • Slow and thoughtful interaction for sense-making. We are only interested in experience, and longer thoughtful posts – not chatter.

  • Accountability, Rights, and Responsibilities. There are grown ups in charge, and it is clear who they are. It’s the people who are legally responsible for running the organisation that keeps things going. They decide who gets to stay and have no trouble kicking people out if needed.

  • What recourse is available? People vote with their feet. There is no formal process for one’s voice being included in decision-making. But there is an open listening culture, and respect for people’s input as a basis for making good decisions. In any binding contracts we have an arbitration clause – if there are any disputes they are resolved in such a way as to preserve good relationships.

  • Let things be a bit messy. When things are broken or imperfect, it creates an opportunity. Things that overly focus on tech become anti-human, optimization becomes an ideology. What can you solve with just adding more humans?

  • Reject code as law. Hard DAOs are hostile to change – forks work by human to human conversation.

  • The people who scream the loudest about how thing should be run tend to contribute least to its running.

Nadia clarified a difference in how they operate from how I outlined it:

When Jean opened the series, she talked about governance as perceive, decide, act. For us it’s Invite, Perceive, Act – rough consensus and running code. Alignment trumps vote.

09:06:47 From Nadia to Everyone: https://www.edgeryders.org/
09:12:58 From solsista to Everyone: so the middle is not slow?
09:14:09 From solsista to Everyone: how?? examples yes pls
09:14:11 From solsista to Everyone: OMG
09:14:19 From ilan to Everyone: she’ll get there
09:14:35 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Digital ethnography on steroids…
09:16:10 From Nadia to Everyone: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/can-monasteries-be-model-reclaiming-tech-culture-good/
09:17:55 From solsista to Everyone: does that relate to power?
09:18:01 From jean m russell to Everyone: yes
09:18:20 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: 👏🏽
09:18:34 From ilan to Everyone: 🙂
09:18:41 From solsista to Everyone: nature is efficient
09:19:59 From solsista to Everyone: how do people process that data?
09:20:13 From jean m russell to Everyone: Nature and efficiency: page 13 https://www.slideshare.net/NurtureGirl/thrivability-a-collaborative-sketch-3406586
09:20:28 From jean m russell to Everyone: Nature loves redundancy
09:22:12 From solsista to Everyone: redundancy is efficient
09:22:57 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: That needs people at the core without their own agendas, though, it seems. And that is something very lacking in the current DAO space.
09:23:00 From solsista to Everyone: yes I agree the author is talking about human relationships
09:24:03 From jean m russell to Everyone: SSNA visuals?
09:24:17 From Nadia to Everyone: https://start.edgeryders.eu/page/15643
09:29:11 From Guy James to Everyone: she said we reject code as law and the ideology of optimisation
09:30:39 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Efficiency vs. Effectiveness?
09:30:50 From solsista to Everyone: effective right
09:31:27 From solsista to Everyone: it depends what one optimizes for
09:31:31 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Taylorism in social systems
09:31:44 From jean m russell to Everyone: What are you hiding under the word “efficiency” – is it fast? or better? Or what? Effective?
09:32:55 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: I see efficiency as the the ability to maximize or minimize some set of variables. Effectiveness (or even wisdom) consists of figuring out which variables to choose to maximize or minimize.
09:33:48 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Human-centric design?
09:34:02 From solsista to Everyone: the issue is human-centric
09:35:03 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: “thinking through with others” < 09:35:05 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Conversational engine... 09:35:44 From Brad to Everyone: This event in ’91 was real-time collective decision-making, a multiplicity (audience in a theatre) play Pong together. https://vimeo.com/78043173
09:36:15 From Brad to Everyone: It would be great to do a next gen version using networks
09:37:08 From jean m russell to Everyone: That sounds fun Brad
09:40:19 From jean m russell to Everyone: We can do Q and A for a bit. And we can also do some questions which we can discuss together as a group… such as
09:40:26 From jean m russell to Everyone: Include and exclude. How are we clear in distributed organizations and networks who is included and what gets you excluded?
09:40:45 From jean m russell to Everyone: What does an open listening culture mean to you? Where do you experience it? What creates that feeling?
09:41:18 From jean m russell to Everyone: when something isn’t working, what, in your experience actually opens the way forward?
09:44:30 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: How power is actually attributed and inscribed? Knowledge? Political influence?
09:46:33 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Friendly and thoughtful…
09:47:12 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Methodology rigorous…
09:47:47 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: Curious: How do you curate the group of potential contributors to keep the conversations friendly and thoughtful? (In my observation, that seems to be getting harder and harder to do lately!)
09:48:14 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Institutional memory….
09:49:59 From Brad to Everyone: How does authoritativeness ‘render’ in the user experience? Is it badges? Other visualization?
09:53:09 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Action-research+dataViz+sense-making+co-creation+large scale conversation
09:53:38 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: A stop light can encode coordination. But so can a traffic-circle. There coordination happens in two different ways.
09:55:32 From Imma to Everyone: I’m suffering for dave’s raised hand
09:55:49 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: 🤣
09:59:59 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: the “right” people have been listening in on that conversation
10:00:17 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: it wouldn’t work if it was ‘just anyone’
10:00:39 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: So is that another power dynamic?
10:04:56 From jean m russell to Everyone: Can we do breakouts to discuss: Include and exclude. How are we clear in distributed organizations and networks who is included and what gets you excluded?
10:06:40 From jean m russell to Everyone: Let’s do 3-4 minutes, please
10:11:33 From Guy James to Everyone: well we solved that whole include/exclude in 3 minutes, phew

🙂

10:11:41 From Guy James to Everyone: palomitas
10:11:54 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: 🍿
10:12:00 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: For venezuelans would be cotufas
10:12:19 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: pipoca for brazilians
10:12:19 From Nadia to Everyone: We have manuals for everything
10:12:35 From Nadia to Everyone: Literally every single process, community norms etc etc
10:12:46 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: rtfm
10:12:49 From Guy James to Everyone: interesante Adriana no sabia esa palabra
10:12:50 From solsista to Everyone: do you read the manuals Nadia ? 😉
10:12:57 From Nadia to Everyone: Ive been involved in writing them
10:13:12 From Nadia to Everyone: It’s p2P
10:13:52 From solsista to Everyone: hahaha no I mean because you asked whether people are manual readers or tinkerers in the first session 🙂
10:14:16 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: Sebnem! Nadia gave me a link!!!
10:14:19 From Nadia to Everyone: https://edgeryders.eu/c/docs/12
10:16:57 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Gives a new meaning to Skin in the game 😂
10:17:07 From ilan to Everyone: 😂
10:18:12 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: 💯
10:18:20 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Culture of belonging
10:20:02 From Guy James to Everyone: you can see how very well-executed street art almost never gets graffitied over
10:20:20 From Guy James to Everyone: often it stays pristine for years
10:20:20 From Nadia to Everyone: +1 Guy
10:21:43 From jean m russell to Everyone: Can we also explore, without breakout, the next question: What does an open listening culture mean to you? Where do you experience it? What creates that feeling?
10:22:00 From ilan to Everyone: humor
10:23:54 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Safe Space or Brave Space or Learning Space or Courageous Space
10:24:10 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: All of them?
10:24:38 From Guy James to Everyone: open listening culture = people can disagree without excessive conflict
10:24:44 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Distinctions between Safety and comfort can often be unclear
10:24:46 From jean m russell to Everyone: What you specifically want for listening can be different – agreement to listen to challenging things or personal stories etc.
10:25:07 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: The Listening Society
10:25:48 From Guy James to Everyone: it’s easy to listen when everyone agrees on everything – safe space = bubble
10:25:49 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://medium.com/the-abs-tract-organization/the-listening-society-ed10f559f824
10:26:01 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: How do trust is generated…?
10:26:19 From ilan to Everyone: one action at a time
10:26:20 From Guy James to Everyone: on my reading list Turquoise!
10:26:55 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Coevolutionary process within the relational context of participatory culture and participatory governance.
10:27:00 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Perhaps…
10:27:11 From ilan to Everyone: convolutionary 🙂
10:27:35 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: #TraumaInformedEverything
10:28:26 From Nadia to Everyone: How do you personally deal with that? Staying healthy inside?
10:29:02 From solsista to Everyone: wow yes
10:29:09 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: I will say that Eric has been one of the exceptions to the statement I made about experts. Very, very different experience in those sessions.
10:29:29 From solsista to Everyone: but Eric always participates :))
10:29:36 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: 🙂
10:29:39 From solsista to Everyone: not as an expert, huge listener
10:29:58 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: expert listener 😉
10:30:20 From solsista to Everyone: but I have to leave – will listen in recording
10:30:23 From solsista to Everyone: thank you all!
10:31:24 From Nadia to Everyone: At the core of our group are people based in Europe.
10:31:33 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Thank you Nadia, Jean, thank you all. I have a commitment I have to attend to.
10:31:36 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Yes, absolutely
10:31:42 From Guy James to Everyone: I gotta go, thanks, interesting session!
10:31:47 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: Bye Eric, Thank you
10:32:15 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: Bye bye Guy 🙂
10:32:32 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Have to go. See you next week!
10:32:41 From jean m russell to Everyone: gratitude
10:33:12 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Dear Human Experts 👽 We have come to your planet to co-create omniharmonic resonance with your species 🛸

We have cosmic puzzle pieces 🌌🧩🪐 to share…

Tell us… 🤔 how well do you listen? 👂🏽
10:33:27 From jean m russell to Everyone: <3 <3 <3 10:33:38 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Turquoise 10:34:57 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: ☺️😉😊🙏🏽💗 10:36:18 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Cultural Dexterity 10:36:32 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: +1 👆🏽 10:37:15 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Acculturative capacity is how I’ve been languaging, but that’s MUCH better. 10:37:31 From ilan to Everyone: showing them where the cupboard is 10:37:38 From ilan to Everyone: Swedish saying 10:37:49 From ilan to Everyone: expression.... srry 10:38:00 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: What does that mean? 10:39:55 From Nadia to Everyone: What do you mean Turquoise 10:40:40 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Re: swedish dioma— “telling it like it is” 10:40:46 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: *idioma 10:40:52 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Idiomatic expression 10:41:22 From Nadia to Everyone: It comes down to how you want to manage emotional labour 10:41:35 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Container setting and frameworks for facilitation have helped some in the past. Trust building as Infinite game play… generative actions and regenerative process over time. 10:41:38 From Nadia to Everyone: Different people step in for that 10:41:51 From Nadia to Everyone: Some are more empathetic than others 10:42:34 From jean m russell to Everyone: Everyone contributing to the health and healing of the whole. Distribution of emotional labor 10:42:36 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Oriented to the wholeness and coherence of of the felid 10:42:53 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: +1 Jean 10:43:48 From Nadia to Everyone: As a friend puts it “I am not your nanny" 10:45:24 From jean m russell to Everyone: Protocols make it less personal 10:45:25 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Curious about anyone’s thoughts on the Surveying and Seeding process of human and social permaculture here. 10:45:55 From jean m russell to Everyone: Can you link us Turquoise? 10:46:07 From Nadia to Everyone: I think it is important to be explicit about your circle of care 10:46:29 From jean m russell to Everyone: I have such a deep respect for your sense and clarity of your boundaries Nadia 10:46:57 From Nadia to Everyone: I am clear that my priority is the wellbeing of the people who are at the core of all this - people with whom we have travelled for many years 10:47:18 From Nadia to Everyone: Anything or anyone who jeopardises them can step afic 10:47:38 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Human Permaculture is a model I’ve been developing, though I believe there is a book with a similar title, I’ve been laying out something more specific. 10:47:48 From jean m russell to Everyone: Would love to hear more 10:47:57 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: In terms or social permaculture see Adam Brock and Abrah dresdale will link one sec 10:48:22 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://youtu.be/vH7YNe7OTNM
10:48:53 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I have a longer educational playlist on social permaculture as a topic
10:49:35 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Some of my older thinking on the topic…
10:49:37 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://www.patreon.com/posts/61497916
10:50:43 From Nadia to Everyone: Thanks @Turquoise, will have a look – seems interesting
10:52:04 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: Control vs. Influence
10:52:35 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Emotional labor….
10:53:48 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: I feel that it is demanded from me to be NICE…
10:54:15 From ilan to Everyone: “the key to success is the balance between caring and not caring”
10:55:02 From jean m russell to Everyone: I really have to have a bio break. Back in 2.
10:57:27 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Yes
10:57:43 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Zones of intimacy- social permaculture
10:57:58 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: Where is that tool!!!!! We need it
10:58:08 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: There is a computational limit
10:58:34 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: On vectors of time and energy
10:58:36 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: opportunity cost.
10:59:06 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I linked my explanation of that above.
10:59:14 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Information theory and communication theory
10:59:45 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thank you Turquoise. So exciting. This is the kind of thing I want to be exploring in Group Dynamics series this Fall…
11:00:01 From Nadia to Everyone: + 1 Turqouise
11:00:13 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: 👍🏽
11:01:41 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Content analysis
11:02:10 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: What is that called?
11:02:49 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: https://edgeryders.teachable.com/p/master-open-ethnographer
11:02:59 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: I need to depart. Thank you all.
11:03:08 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Jamison
11:03:29 From Nadia to Everyone: Bye Jamison
11:05:17 From jean m russell to Everyone: Intersubjective ethnographic analysis?
11:05:30 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: I have to also go. Thank you all so much!
11:05:54 From jean m russell to Everyone: Semantic Social Network Analysis (SSNA)
11:05:58 From ilan to Everyone: bye sparrow!
11:06:05 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Thank you
11:06:06 From Nadia to Everyone: Research.edgeryders.eu
11:06:43 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Thank you everybody!! Super rich >>>!!
11:06:54 From ilan to Everyone: Bye Marlon!
11:09:08 From ilan to Everyone: The ‘what could go wrong?’ factor
11:09:49 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Been talking about this a lot since March
11:09:51 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://www.activeinference.org
11:10:03 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Active inference lab
11:12:34 From ilan to Everyone: bless you psychopathic heart bea
11:14:09 From Bea to Everyone: Love you Ilan
11:14:38 From ilan to Everyone: likewise
11:15:29 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I have a question… on a different thread when there’s a moment for a shift.
11:17:54 From ilan to Everyone: it’s like blog articles about ‘how to be a successful artist’
11:18:13 From ilan to Everyone: *cough*
11:18:28 From jean m russell to Everyone: Making an interesting scene
11:19:18 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Ecotonal overlap
11:29:24 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone:
An intro to the meta view looks something like this… a presentation I did for the Buckminster Fuller Institute at a Design Science Studio event for Miami Art week:
https://www.canva.com/design/DAEySx9oqFw/ChMTRSpEanszqO0C6Xu6qA/view
11:30:09 From Bea to Everyone: thank you
11:45:33 From Bea to Everyone: It was great everyone, thank you Nadia, thanks Jean, beautiful. session. I’m going to try have lunch before the next one!
11:50:38 From jean m russell to Everyone: Connect on your similarities…. And benefit from your differences. At culture layer or any other…
11:51:17 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: note: invite former inmates to next wedding
11:55:46 From jean m russell to Everyone: We want to be in great dinner conversations – be a great dinner guest

Distributed Governance: D Autonomous O

Emaline Friedman, PhD

Emaline Friedman, Ecosystem Development at Neighbourhoods. After finishing her PhD exploring the intersections of technology, psychoanalysis, and social theory, she shifted into practice, building distributed systems technologies that can support equitable, planetary-scale computation for the benefit of human societies during the era of climate emergency.

Eric Harris-Braun

Eric Harris-Braun Co-founder, Holo and Holochain. (Holo is one of the top 100 crypto projects.) Eric passionately builds software for collective intelligence and composability. He has been interested in enabling peer-to-peer networking since 1993, shortly after his B.S. in Computer Science from Yale University. He lives in a Quaker Intentional Community.

Emaline opened with a history of DAOs:

  • buidl products (yearn, Sushi)

  • invest (The LAO, MetaCartel Ventures),

  • collect NFTs (FlamingoDAO, PleasrDAO)

  • provide consultation and buidl services to others (RaidGuild, LexDAO)

Emaline claims that we generally assume that DAOs exist to give everyone freedom, bosslessness, pure vibes, and to solve coordination and collaboration problems fairly, in ways that hierarchical and majority rule systems don’t do well. Ethereum DAO wasn’t really a response to common internet/coordination/autonomy problems, but to the issue of trust in the financial system and in its central points of failure – “a proposal to send funds” / “voting will release funds” . DAOs will help you solve your problems if you are a low-level investment banker, derivatives trader, or someone who makes software for them.

  • They were NOT focused on “user autonomy” and were never poised to distribute power in situations of social coordination. Basically, decision-making power moved from platform moguls to coders with technical expertise (“mere users” never even in the running for any modicum of control)

  • DAO frameworks (Aragon, Colony, DAO Stack) come with built-in governance tools which keep voting and on-chain execution tightly coupled (e.g. share-based voting in Moloch, Snapshot).

SoftDAOs are our response both to DAOs that center on governing a pool of funds AND to the abuses of web2 and what it lacks in creating a re-sponsible social fabric.

Then Emaline handed off to Eric for some Hard/Soft distinctions:

  • Agency vs Determinism,

    • Power: Speech vs Token (agentic/creative power vs unitized/fungible power)

    • Security: observability vs enforcement (internal vs external, wright-bros human steering vs explicit structural steering)

    • Change: human-driven accountable state changes, vs Smart Contracts

    • Evolution: Alignment & Convergence through Discourse vs Governance through pre-ordained mechanism

  • Safety: Internal vs External  – does safety live inside our bodies and internal experiences or is safety being provided by the structure of the context we are in?

    • Bicycle/Tricyle – a tricycle uses three wheels so you don’t have to balance, where a bicycle requires internal balancing.

    • Road protocol vs barrier – is it a protocol, a line, a haptic feedback system, or a concrete barrier?

    • Gradient of Materialized/Memorialized/Fixed. Embodiment (form in the world that is objectively perceivable).

Next we broke out into small groups for 5 minutes discussing this sensing of internal/external and material or not.

Eric then took us into Holochain as a Technical Affordance:

We turn now to the technical affordances of Holochain. It’s a great pattern for Soft DAOs because it can address what both web2 platforms AND Hard DAOs lack. Let’s consider Sovereign Accountable Commons, something we wrote up before we built Holochain.

  • Sovereign (Local chain)

    • Unenclosable: As long as at least one person wants to run it, it can’t be shut down. Two or more nodes running it make it a collective.

    • Everybody in a group is an equal peer, subject to the same rules, processes, and procedures, because everybody is running a copy of the same instruction set.

    • The group cannot threaten to withhold value which was generated https://.artbrock.com/2016/01/31/the-sovereign-accountable-commons by a participant in order to coerce them to continue to participate. Individuals cannot coerce others or the group, by threatening to take (digital) assets that they’ve shared.

  • Accountable (DNA, and signing, Validated)

    • Membranes

    • Every contribution, communication, or action is signed. There is always a trail of evidence left by your actions.

  • Commons  (DHT)

    • All data and assets shared into the commons are structurally held in common. They are not (by default) held in a globally identical ledger, but rather in shards using a Distributed Hash Table (DHT) with algorithms to assure adequate redundancy and availability.

    • Authors (contributors, signors, or parties to a transaction) always keep a local copy of whatever they’ve put into the commons. The commons also keeps copies.

Then Eric spoke about an “Uncapturable Social Grammar: specifically the ability to forge (or form), to federate with others, to fork off, and to fuse together. To truly be able to walkaway, we need the ability to fork both the code and the data!

Eric then gave an overview of how these ideas show up in tools like Where, How, We.

Emaline was going to talk about what forking data might mean and why that matters, but we, as a group, shifted to Q and A instead, given time constraints. Perhaps Emaline will post here about her final piece in the session.

Together, they concluded with the technical (i.e. “hard”) should just be a grammar that creates room for expression.  Expressions of what?  Care:  https://hackernoon.com/care-work-first-code-later-disco-philosophy-101-xc5233mz

10:09:58 From Nadia to Everyone: Id like to know why you got into this if you don’t mind?
10:14:22 From solsista to Everyone: that’s not the DAO idealism though, I think this is our whishful thinking
10:14:34 From jean m russell to Everyone: sure
10:15:24 From Nadia to Everyone: At which point and in which cases does centralisation become an issue? Where do you need some kind of “centralisation” and in which forms?
10:17:30 From jean m russell to Everyone: Nods, is central or decentralized a true polarity or is it a mix – Jamison’s suggestions about different forms of distribution as well as by activity – is the DAO a centralization of the group itself? The server? The methods?
10:17:34 From Nadia to Everyone: What kind of competence/ basic skills or knowledge needed by members in a Dao in order for it to work well?
10:18:16 From solsista to Everyone: these questions need to be solved for human coordination/organization, right?
10:18:26 From jean m russell to Everyone: yes
10:18:30 From solsista to Everyone: DAOs got the contractual automation out of the way kind of
10:18:53 From solsista to Everyone: unbundling the firm is totally possible
10:19:05 From solsista to Everyone: but not making the firm not suck so bad
10:19:43 From Nadia to Everyone: Can someone explain what is difference between an old-school contract between two parties and a contractual agreement within framework of Dao?
10:19:52 From Emaline to Everyone: [power, security, change, evolution]
10:20:00 From solsista to Everyone: why is power so central?
10:20:23 From solsista to Everyone: why is security so central – and what security does money/token really give if insecurities have other sources
10:20:45 From solsista to Everyone: that’s reliability, right?
10:21:18 From jean m russell to Everyone: Let’s say power is the ability to influence actions. How do we hold that together consent fully?
10:22:18 From jean m russell to Everyone: We have different conversations when we feel safe/secure versus we don’t. This makes security/safety important for coordination
10:22:35 From solsista to Everyone: perfect example! how to ride a bicycle with hands-free 🙂
10:22:46 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: I wonder about the unicycle
10:23:11 From solsista to Everyone: embodiment yes pls more
10:23:56 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: https://spinlister-belvedere-assets.spinlister.com/ride/6c67cf16-a2d0-480c-a8f1-2cd51272f900/cover.jpg
10:24:14 From Nadia to Everyone: Who is the driver when you have hard Dao?
10:24:29 From Nadia to Everyone: Vs soft dao.
10:24:37 From jean m russell to Everyone: Embodiment in the world as distinct though related to inside one’s own body
10:25:02 From Emaline to Everyone: Hard DAO driver is usually the developer(s) who writes the executable code
10:25:17 From David Reed to Everyone: Where is the “organization of collective choice” here?
10:25:38 From Emaline to Everyone: Or biggest investors in the token (when amount of tokens held directly corresponds to how much say/voting power, which is normal)
10:25:57 From Nadia to Everyone: Thanks Emaline
10:26:31 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Different mindsets: The difference between ‘common law’ which works by precedent & regulation which tries to codify and prevent wrong behaviour. In the former, everything is permitted unless explicitely prohibited vs. only that which is specifically permitted allowed.
10:27:12 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: In embodied cognition or enactivism is a COUPLING, the internal and external is and illusion.
10:27:22 From Nadia to Everyone: @Sparrow: As in German regulatory framework vs British?
10:37:21 From solsista to Everyone: practice
10:37:22 From solsista to Everyone: yes
10:37:29 From jean m russell to Everyone: Training…
10:37:36 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: practice, yes
10:38:27 From solsista to Everyone: fiction it always is yes
10:38:31 From solsista to Everyone: that is also interesting
10:38:41 From Nadia to Everyone: What is the socialisation process for everyone to learn the digital/organisational equivalent of “don’t speak with your mouth full” or “keep it in your pants”?
10:38:49 From solsista to Everyone: how helpful/harmful are our stories vs. how “real”
10:39:11 From solsista to Everyone: improv is like real-time systems
10:39:15 From solsista to Everyone: aha moment 😉
10:39:53 From Nadia to Everyone: Especially in multi-cultural settings
10:40:07 From solsista to Everyone: there are rules to improv, right?
10:41:17 From solsista to Everyone: chaordic organizations
10:41:21 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Yes, depends of the context or the practice: jazz…or contact improvisation…
10:41:32 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: In the improv work are called ‘scores’
10:41:37 From solsista to Everyone: https://thesystemsthinker.com/the-nature-and-creation-of-chaordic-organizations/
10:41:40 From Nadia to Everyone: Maybe it is better suited to groups who have travelled together in other different constellations?
10:41:49 From Guy James to Everyone: many DAOs meme themselves into existence with no rules at the outset
10:41:59 From solsista to Everyone: @marlon you should do a session on that
10:42:01 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: You are always aware the emergent ‘score’
10:42:01 From Nadia to Everyone: @guy ?
10:42:33 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: https://www.artbrock.com/2016/01/31/the-sovereign-accountable-commons
10:42:45 From Guy James to Everyone: I mean it’s just people fooling around with jokes and memes and gradually a structure emerges
10:43:28 From Nadia to Everyone: Ok. Sounds like it is a subculture
10:43:36 From Nadia to Everyone: Or collectives of subcultures
10:43:39 From Guy James to Everyone: yes exactly
10:43:44 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: @solsista I remember being part of a dance improv project Marlon led in 2000 and people in the audience were sure it was a coreography, because it felt so cohese
10:44:08 From Nadia to Everyone: @Marlon gosh that sounds like fun
10:44:29 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: I would love that!! Yes, it is fun…
10:45:11 From Nadia to Everyone: Question: Isn’t this based on distrust and therefor encourages untreatable behaviour?
10:45:32 From Nadia to Everyone: I mean if you get to a point where you have to point to a contract, your relationships are broken
10:46:37 From Nadia to Everyone: Maybe Im struggling with where digital/online and meatspace overlap or diverge
10:46:39 From jean m russell to Everyone: Prefer to avoid : trust or not trust and instead look at spectrums and evolving trust on different dimensions of activity
10:47:58 From Guy James to Everyone: @Nadia I think the contracts are a backstop, not the backbone of the relationship
10:48:04 From jean m russell to Everyone: agree
10:48:07 From solsista to Everyone: is there some work on that spectrum @jean?
10:48:20 From Nadia to Everyone: @Eric and @Emaline – how much additional overhead does this entail?
10:49:16 From Nadia to Everyone: What is a critical mass of people needed for this stuff to have meatspace impact on how people do things?
10:49:29 From Nadia to Everyone: Or is that even a concern?
10:50:14 From jean m russell to Everyone: Where and the Grammatical of Location: https://eric.harris-braun.com/blog/2021/09/16/id-377
10:50:14 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: can it become something bureaucratic like Wikipedia?
10:50:24 From solsista to Everyone: a link to How and We pls as well
10:50:27 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Is there a website with the overview of where, how, and we and other associated tools?
10:51:15 From Guy James to Everyone: +1
10:51:21 From jean m russell to Everyone: https://lightningrodlabs.org/ and also the Eric.harris-braun.com blog
10:51:52 From Nadia to Everyone: Yes
10:54:02 From Nadia to Everyone: So like what you are trying to solve is the principle-agent problem?
10:54:32 From Nadia to Everyone: Like having elected officials not do what they were supposed to/do things they said they wouldn’t?
10:55:28 From Nadia to Everyone: But its super interesting to hear what Emaline has to say
10:56:05 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: allows for emergence
10:56:40 From Emaline to Everyone: My last bit is “well, if we’re not allocating funds, wtf do we do together with our data? what is possible/useful in a grassrootsy data economy?”
10:56:46 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: I also like nurturing as a concept
10:56:56 From Nadia to Everyone: Emaline please do!
10:57:13 From David Reed to Everyone: I just want to suggest people might want to read about Josiah Warren’s Time Store, which was an early form of a “Soft DAO” for a community (1840’s) that worked pretty well. The “tokens” were offers of “hours of labor by a specific person” that can be used to trade for other such offers. The point being that a record is fully transparent.
10:57:23 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: +1 +1 +1
10:57:52 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thank you David. I always appreciate your resource offerings.
10:58:22 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Socio-technical systems by degree…affordances design.
10:58:26 From solsista to Everyone: how do we move past trading our limited time
10:58:27 From David Reed to Everyone: Well, I appreciate this forum…
10:58:27 From Nadia to Everyone: @DavidReed like circular networked barter?
10:59:10 From David Reed to Everyone: It’s subtle how it works – yeah, it is barter, but not for stuff but for willingness to help each other.
10:59:13 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Agency for redesign
10:59:47 From Guy James to Everyone: We are doing a similar thing using mutual credit here in self-organising groups here in Catalonia. However the issue is that it relies on IRL trust and knowing the people directly, so it doesn’t scale
10:59:53 From Nadia to Everyone: @davidreed Ok so more a way to organise/direct ones goodwill where it makes most contribution?
11:00:19 From David Reed to Everyone: It’s more than goodwill. It’s full accountability.
11:00:47 From David Reed to Everyone: Warren is far more effective at presenting it.
11:01:27 From David Reed to Everyone: Everyone ends up with lots of skin in the game.
11:01:45 From Guy James to Everyone: can be like a gift economy but accounted for – the gift is the work itself
11:02:32 From David Reed to Everyone: Probably. It’s not exactly gifting, but it is more like giving loans.
11:02:42 From Guy James to Everyone: this is also how similar to how Coordinape works which many DAOs use, except it’s more intersubjective in the value distribution
11:02:56 From David Reed to Everyone: You can only give as many hours of your time as you have to give
11:03:09 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Hard-versus-Soft? What would be the third option?
11:03:21 From jean m russell to Everyone: plasma
11:03:23 From Emaline to Everyone: Sounds like @solsista is describing a form of code switching..
11:03:25 From David Reed to Everyone: bye all, gtg
11:03:30 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Alive
11:03:34 From Guy James to Everyone: I think it’s a spectrum from hard to soft
11:03:44 From Emaline to Everyone: @Guy YES
11:04:06 From Nadia to Everyone: Ok we can explore this in a separate conversation
11:04:19 From Nadia to Everyone: nadia@edgeryders.eu
11:04:23 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: non-newtonian liquid @marlon
11:04:50 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Governance/Cooperativsm/
11:05:13 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: How is CARE instantiated? Materialized?
11:05:31 From Nadia to Everyone: So in simple words if I understand: A way to agree in the group how to interact with people not in the group/who have necessarily accepted the social contract
11:05:35 From Nadia to Everyone: Correct?
11:06:37 From solsista to Everyone: that’s the last or one end of the spectrum
11:06:42 From Guy James to Everyone: Sebnem can you post a link to your project please?
11:06:55 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Hola, I need to read more in holochain…
11:07:26 From Nadia to Everyone: @solsista and on the other end of the spectrum?
11:07:40 From solsista to Everyone: the other is making deliberation, decision making visible as they happen in flow (and not pressing it into project mgmt. tools)
11:07:51 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: What was the language comparable to DAOs in HC that Eric mentioned earlier… 🤔 sovereign… something something. Basically a p2p dyad or more?
11:07:56 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: 😎
11:08:11 From Guy James to Everyone: sovereign accountable commons
11:08:12 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Sovereign Accountable Commons: https://www.artbrock.com/2016/01/31/the-sovereign-accountable-commons
11:08:17 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: @guy try this for DADA Invisible Economy (it’s old so it progresses much since then)
11:08:18 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: https://powerdada.medium.com/the-invisible-economy-db46897d4f07
11:08:22 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Ty
11:08:24 From solsista to Everyone:
https://powerdada.medium.com/the-invisible-economy-incentive-framework-1c414ed5c5b7
11:08:31 From Nadia to Everyone: Ok, so if I understand it correctly: Making the social contract as it is actually practiced visible
11:08:37 From Guy James to Everyone: ok thanks Lenara
11:08:41 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: @marlon Maybe start here for holochain: https://medium.com/holochain/unenclosable-carriers-and-the-future-of-communication-4ac6045ac894
11:08:41 From solsista to Everyone: https://powerdada.medium.com/introducing-the-dada-exit-to-community-d4b9874c6c94
11:09:13 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: thanks @solsista for more recent links to Invisible Economy texts
11:09:40 From jean m russell to Everyone: https://herlinus.com/
11:09:52 From jean m russell to Everyone: https://www.routledge.com/Internet-Addiction-A-Critical-Psychology-of-Users/Friedman/p/book/9780367172954
11:11:06 From solsista to Everyone: self-knowledge
11:11:31 From jean m russell to Everyone: Training internal as well as intersubjective to build ability together
11:11:57 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Process can be always constructed based in a theory…subjectivities are constructed… psychoanalysis was not a SAFE place for women…
11:12:01 From Nadia to Everyone: +1 Jean. Question is how to do that in diverse groups
11:12:07 From solsista to Everyone: are there articles you can recommend wrt intersubjective pls?
11:12:25 From Nadia to Everyone: @Marlon – ?
11:13:07 From Nadia to Everyone: Don’t know much about psychoanalysis in practice beyond some viennese dude going on about kids and parents
11:13:47 From Nadia to Everyone: Olds and N00bs
11:14:31 From Nadia to Everyone: Or you employer
11:15:26 From solsista to Everyone: oh no, I need to jump – but this is super interesting, will catch up the rest in recording
11:15:27 From Nadia to Everyone: It’s like blanketing yourself into trauma being shouted back at you
11:16:22 From jean m russell to Everyone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone
11:16:49 From Nadia to Everyone: Hand raised
11:16:56 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: +1 warm data labs 🙂
11:17:08 From jean m russell to Everyone: https://batesoninstitute.org/warm-data/
11:17:25 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: https://batesoninstitute.org/warm-data/
11:18:15 From Guy James to Everyone:
I think a lot of the warmth in DAOs is what is called ‘vibes’ = all the other stuff which is not on chain
11:18:29 From jean m russell to Everyone: Ann was around in the summer of 2017 when Holo started in SF
11:18:31 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: What is a Meta-for?
11:18:34 From Nadia to Everyone: Yeah John Coate talks about vibes alot
11:19:25 From jean m russell to Everyone:
Vibes! Yes!
11:22:27 From Nadia to Everyone: Yeah some person in a room making you talk about painful things
11:22:37 From jean m russell to Everyone: Subjectivity is constructed….
11:22:45 From Nadia to Everyone: Rwandans said no t
11:22:57 From Emaline to Everyone: As a social technology it is strongly rooted in the pastoral/confessional relationship
11:23:03 From Nadia to Everyone: In the post genocide healing process
11:23:07 From Emaline to Everyone: Which I think shows up too in social media in weird ways
11:23:37 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Re care, I appreciated this from DisCo: https://hackernoon.com/care-work-first-code-later-disco-philosophy-101-xc5233mz
11:23:50 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: 🥰🥰🥰
11:23:53 From jean m russell to Everyone: I would like to hear more about that Nadia
11:23:59 From jean m russell to Everyone: Can be offline
11:24:09 From Guy James to Everyone: Jordan Hall on “vibes” https://twitter.com/jgreenhall/status/1466440874519269380
11:24:10 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: +1 for care work 👏🏽
11:24:43 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: To address complexity we need warm data
11:25:03 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Go California!!!
11:27:19 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Yes, Ann. It is with warm data that we have hope. And that is essential.
11:27:22 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Go techno-utopians!!
11:28:19 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: “Strength can be positive (concentric contraction, lifting), static (isometric contraction, holding), or negative (eccentric contraction, lowering).” — the power of force… the power of dissociation/insensitivity (cluster b)… power of vulnerability… The power of moving in right relationship with Li —> Wu Wei vs Yu Wei?? 🤔
11:28:49 From Guy James to Everyone: Jean – can you post this chat on Mighty Networks afterwards please?
11:29:13 From jean m russell to Everyone: Yes, Guy. I feel like I missed one of them. I will be sure to get this one.
11:29:21 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: 👆🏽 Re: trauma and dark triads being successful in our world ☝🏽
11:29:22 From Guy James to Everyone: I will need to watch the recording again as well, this has been super-dense (and super-interesting)
11:29:51 From Guy James to Everyone: I think I was able to save the chat last week if that was the one you missed, so I could post it (I think)
11:29:52 From Brad to Everyone: Great discussion. Gtg. Thanks all.
11:29:53 From jean m russell to Everyone: Cross cultural conversation
11:30:19 From jean m russell to Everyone: “Grammar”
11:30:33 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: It is not your problem!!!
11:31:09 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Enculturation
11:31:26 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: It starts propagating as people use it
11:31:51 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: The Bateson People Need People process helps with this woo woo problem
11:32:00 From Guy James to Everyone: people always ask me why stuff in Web3 has to be so complicated – but hopefully the end user experience will end up being very transparent and easy to use (not there yet for sure)
11:32:37 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Epistemic hacking!
11:32:50 From jean m russell to Everyone: Nods Guy
11:33:10 From Sid Sthalekar to Everyone: It’s that time of the day when I have to drop-off. Late here. Thank you all for the lovely conversation – especially Eric and Emaline 🙂
11:33:17 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thank you Sid
11:33:26 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Epistemic and communication hacking is a thing I’ve been into lately re: information Ecology.
11:33:29 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: +! Marlon Epistemology according to Gregory
11:33:52 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: +1 marlon & ann
11:34:27 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: We have translators that stand next to us to transmit 2nd & 3rd order complexity.
11:34:56 From Guy James to Everyone: when Holochain is widely used then all of Eric’s ideas will be embodied into easy to use tech
11:34:57 From jean m russell to Everyone: Some of us are multi-meta lingual… and some of those of us are good at user experience..
11:35:09 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Podcasts end up being one route I’ve seen online… there’s a prairie dog network that filters into online communities.
11:35:24 From Nadia to Everyone: We can follow up Eric
11:36:00 From jean m russell to Everyone: Turquoise is often speaking 5 different “languages” or levels simultaneously. It is incredible. 🙂
11:36:01 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: …Zoom calls and discords and patreon s and mighty networks and signal and telegram feeds— also note, the generations receive and integrate different.
11:36:34 From Nadia to Everyone: Its good to have people who kiiiiiiiiind of get it but are a bit lost
11:36:39 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Bricolage + grammars + meta + traces + affects
11:36:59 From jean m russell to Everyone: Totally Nadia. Struggling to get it helps with finding ways to communicate it
11:37:39 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Lol 😂 Whhelll thank you 😌🙏🏽💗 that means a whole lot. There’s a wired series called 5 Levels of Learning — I’ve been practicing shhh 🤫
11:37:41 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLibNZv5Zd0dyCoQ6f4pdXUFnpAIlKgm3N
11:37:57 From jean m russell to Everyone: gratitude
11:38:30 From jean m russell to Everyone: Public lecture… 🙂
11:38:34 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I don’t know if it’s effective 😅🤪 but I’m trying to hit lots of audiences at once like a giant mixed memeplex ball 🙃🤓
11:38:45 From jean m russell to Everyone: I see you
11:39:14 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Do you remember me reading from Small Circles to the group on one of the IE meetings? (Bea, Lenara, Sebnem) Having this convergence would be wonderful.
11:39:43 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: *Small Arcs
11:39:52 From Nadia to Everyone: Yah Id never heard of Bateson till Jean pointed me to. her
11:40:19 From jean m russell to Everyone: Fun stuff. 🙂 I am a huge fan of Symmathesy
11:40:29 From Guy James to Everyone: her documentary about her dad is really good btw if you are interested where these ideas come from
11:40:57 From Emaline to Everyone: I gotta take care of my pup..let’s see if you’re all here when I’m back in a few ✌️
11:41:45 From Guy James to Everyone: Bateson, Alan Watts, Stan Grof, Esalen etc had a huge influence
11:42:38 From Herman to Everyone: very educational. thank you. CU next week.
11:42:44 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Engineers get to opt out
11:42:51 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: That’s what I’ve seen
11:43:16 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Undergrad is too rigorous mathematically so they are often afforded to option to skip
11:43:38 From Nadia to Everyone: Its just not part of pop culture
11:43:46 From Nadia to Everyone: For techheads
11:44:21 From Nadia to Everyone:
Frogs ok and cats, but not the other stuff
11:44:33 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone:
Hmm 🤔 I think there’s starting to be a little overlap. It’s just bubbling up in the game b, integral, and metamodern and bildung spaces aka the emergencia
11:45:12 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: FYI Holochain and Ceptr all come out of my reading of Bateson, Steps to and Encology of Mind, and Mind and Nature.
11:45:14 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://youtu.be/jxhTGKvy_Y8
11:45:14 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: https://medium.com/@coelho_28756/american-counterculture-and-cybernetics-d709f99e8002
11:45:25 From Nadia to Everyone: Thanks for hosting this Jean -its like P2P uni without the snore
11:45:32 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I spoke about aphantapoeis on my last podcast appearance on omniharmonic
11:45:40 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Donna Haraway too, is someone I think has important things to say about these things. Right there along with Nora, for me.
11:45:51 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: +1 Turquoise
11:46:09 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: @Nadia here’s where Nora is popular
11:46:11 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://www.joelightfoot.org/post/the-liminal-web-mapping-an-emergent-subculture-of-sensemakers-meta-theorists-systems-poets
11:46:16 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: See the Liminal Web
11:46:44 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: She’s labeled as a Systems Poet with Tyson Yunkaporta
11:47:04 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Nora’s 3rd generation
11:47:08 From jean m russell to Everyone: She is popular in many circles and has been weaving across many spaces including liminal people
11:47:32 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: He married Maraget Mead, yes?
11:47:44 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: yes
11:47:54 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: First marriage. She wasn’t Nora’s mom.
11:47:56 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Yes
11:47:58 From Emaline to Everyone: @marlon have you read? it’s excellent: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/F/bo3773600.html
11:48:36 From Nadia to Everyone: Or like different clouds of connected terms, and you stick your head into different clouds
11:49:03 From Nadia to Everyone: My battery is dying <3 bye 11:49:19 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Thanks Nadia! 11:49:28 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I want to map some of these online ecosystems with open ethnography maybe 11:49:39 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: 🤷🏽‍♀️ 11:49:54 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Or suggest a group do it. 11:50:06 From jean m russell to Everyone: We so celebrate the specialist rather than the synthesizers 11:50:08 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: I’m a certified warm data host and so is Matt Shutte 11:50:29 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I’m 💯 a generalist synthesizer 11:50:58 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: Trancontextual learning 11:51:01 From jean m russell to Everyone: I recognize that in your work Turquoise 11:51:36 From jean m russell to Everyone: Warm soft education - for you and with you and not for the factory 11:52:09 From Guy James to Everyone: do you have a link to that podcast you were talking about Turquoise? 11:52:45 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: not even transfer, nurturing those 11:52:47 From Guy James to Everyone: we do need to celebrate synthesizers for sure, and those who make high-level stuff understandable 11:52:51 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I’ve been perpetually frustrated at almost every institution, academic or otherwise… so I’ve started talking about negative space organizations and moving like slime mold cause I more more like that. 11:52:53 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: instead of stifling it 11:53:22 From jean m russell to Everyone: Slime Mold is my spirit animal!!! 11:53:28 From Guy James to Everyone: haha! 11:53:30 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: +1 jean 11:54:08 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://twitter.com/futureculturing/status/1512841602191880195?s=21&t=VNOLQF49zvtemR2APZEVEA
11:54:13 From Guy James to Everyone: ant colony is my spirit animal
11:54:19 From jean m russell to Everyone: Nice.
11:54:27 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Link to Omniharmonic podcast from Future Culturing
11:54:52 From Guy James to Everyone: thanks!
11:55:39 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Episode 1 on the liminal web
11:57:08 From Guy James to Everyone: will listen to that, big fan of Jeremy J and Joe Lightfoot, and of course, you 🙂
11:58:08 From Guy James to Everyone: can’t be the UK, all the best players there play for 3 or 4 teams
11:58:40 From Guy James to Everyone: I think it’s the draft system in baseball or NFL which keeps things more balanced
11:59:00 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I was thinking the same re: draft
11:59:29 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Jermey and joe are dear close friends
11:59:31 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: Redesigning contexts of interactions…
11:59:56 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: thanks @guy I’m a complete sports ignorant lol
12:00:04 From Marlon Barrios Solano MotionDAO to Everyone: The skin in the game
12:00:12 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Yes +1
12:01:42 From Guy James to Everyone: I have to go but thanks everyone!! was great

Distributed Governance: Distributed Governance applied in Logistics with Herman Wagter

Herman Wagter works as a program manager specializing in large multi-stakeholder initiatives. Through his work at Connekt, he has done strategy development for Lean and Green, Green Deal Zero Emission City Logistics, and other distributed logistics projects.

Herman opened the session with some distinctions about math and physics. (Jean likes to note that Herman has a physics background, and Herman likes to downplay it.) Herman shared that we experience time and moving in one direction, whereas math is okay with reversible time. Furthermore he stresses that we do not have math for predictions on collective behavior: emergence. And life is collective behavior.

He then went from the simple organism that is an ant to the behavior of an ant colony to demonstrate. Colony: many actors in an interaction space = collective emergent behavior. Basically he says emergence is a way of talking about something we don’t understand. We can observe, simulate, develop heuristics, and use trial and error.

A living cell, Herman explained, has an identifiable boundary. But that boundary is an interface with the environment it needs to grow and adapt. And if cell, then also organ and organ system and organism nested all the way up. We here focus on the nest layer of organization and society – the collection of those organisms and organizations. Here Herman turned to focus on specialization. And he nodded to the “invisible hand” as an old expression for emergent behavior.

Next Herman looked at the mathy approach to design for organizations: prediction of results, defined specifications, functional hierarchy, and emergence by accident.  Rather than Heuristics, similulation, trail and error and accident. To see what we mean by this, Herman used the example of DabbaWallah, a 120 year old method of bringing meals from home to work using self organizing teams with simple routing and no central planning or control.

Heuristics: this is event driven interaction (local reality drives different responses, expanding or contracting crew size, for example). Local interaction space – bounded and defined, intimate (pick up in this area and dropping within this area). Simple rules that are easy to apply (group by sorting number at any sorting location). Local shared information – feedback loops, optimization is easy, and visibility = trust. Empowerment and the Action Spectrum (see Thrivability Breakthroughs book for Action Spectrum of Control, Guide, and Nurture).

Then Herman shifted to intersection coordination – stop signs, stop lights, and roundabouts. The math approach is traffic lights. A 4 way stop is an event driven interaction space (what happens there next changes based on what is happening there now). A roundabout is also event driven – yield to traffic (and pay attention to which direction it is going in!).

As another practical example, Herman explained Buffer Bloat on the ATT internet network and how changing a crucial rule made it spin out of control. (See slides for details of example).

Then Herman followed with some of the specific projects he has worked on/designed starting with a barge priority token system. Then Herman explained JustDrive, a medical delivery system whose prototype was so successful they wouldn’t stop doing it. The system routes information as needed so that selected accredited drivers can be invited to do a pickup from a medical facility, use a QR code to confirm action, and then choose their route to a clinic worked where another QR code confirms delivery. The system allows for local navigation of complexity while increasing trust of the participants.

Then we opened the floor for discussion. See the chat for more.

10:00:22 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Good morning!!!
10:01:24 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Good!
10:04:30 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: Good afternoon (over here) 🙂
10:30:57 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: *if ?
10:31:09 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: “If incoming buffer is full”
10:31:22 From jean m russell to Everyone: Then drop packets
10:31:32 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: yes. I think there’s a typo
10:31:43 From Guy James to Everyone: yes ‘if’ not ‘is’, there was a typo
10:39:51 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Re the barge/shipping example… If the tokens are localized, non fungible and tied to virtuous feedback loops, what are the power leveraging mechanics that emerge (a kin to the trade, financialization, speculation etc mentioned)? <— maybe a question for later. Just posting here so I don’t forget. 10:44:30 From David Reed to Everyone: In the barge example, I can see about 5 ways to hack the overall system to be as power-distorted as possible. The technical solution can't be self-optimizing - that's the point. The reason it works is that in the simple form, it is transparent to all participants when cheating happens. So those who use it can quickly fix it to be fair - IF they want it fair. Jailing cheaters is a simple fix. This is why "math" doesn't work, not math alone. 10:46:29 From Guy James to Everyone: this is a very nice presentation related to all this featuring Jean's spirit animal, the slime mold
https://komoroske.com/slime-mold/
10:46:37 From David Reed to Everyone: BTW, both my mic and camera are somehow disabled by the OS.
10:52:59 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Agency/autonomy/control
10:55:49 From Guy James to Everyone: maybe it’s good that we have to drive through roundabouts rather than everyone being free to just make up their own rules of the road
10:55:56 From David Reed to Everyone: It’s clear to most people, I think, that freedom comes in a social context.
10:56:17 From David Reed to Everyone: We negotiate tradeoffs
10:56:59 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Designed bottom affordances
10:57:16 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I’ve got 30 more minutes!!! 🤠
10:57:16 From Guy James to Everyone: +1 David all coordination is a tradeoff
10:58:47 From Guy James to Everyone: when I went to Nepal I was terrified getting in a car because I thought there were no rules. But in fact there are several unofficial rules, e.g. bigger vehicle gets priority. This becomes obvious after a while.
10:59:06 From jean m russell to Everyone: Implicit rules…
10:59:09 From Guy James to Everyone: these unofficial rules tend to emerge
10:59:25 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Jean, my question is on implicit rules
10:59:48 From jean m russell to Everyone: A general rule also tends to be the most willing to damage their vehicle has right away. 🙂
10:59:59 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: I love how informal rules can evolve without formal process/oversight.
11:01:04 From Guy James to Everyone: yes, older vehicles or people in a real hurry can break the rules if they are willing to risk damage
11:01:25 From jean m russell to Everyone: Gratitude to our Pacific Coast members getting on early in the morning. 🙂
11:01:30 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Ethical hackers…
11:02:39 From David Reed to Everyone: The fear of loss of control drives acceptance of power-dominance
11:03:26 From Guy James to Everyone: also rent seekers creating choke points to profit from allowing access as gatekeepers
11:03:43 From Guy James to Everyone: in systems which have no real need for gatekeepers
11:03:56 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Yes. PDT in the houuuuseeee!! 😁🙌🏽 I went to bed early so I’m on camera this morning. 🤓😂
11:04:05 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Importance of monitoring…
11:04:09 From jean m russell to Everyone: Gratitude!
11:04:51 From David Reed to Everyone: Bye everyone. Excellent to hear Herman’s work and people’s engagement with it.
11:05:19 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Lets issue a token!
11:05:30 From Guy James to Everyone: I was going to say the same thing!
11:05:50 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks David
11:09:03 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Control aspect of the system and possibility of self-regulation…where the control comes from
11:09:06 From Guy James to Everyone: in the UK cars always stop immediately at zebra crossing (crosswalk). In Spain there are more of them so the unofficial rule is to only stop if you’re the last car in the “packet’ of cars, otherwise you have to stop all the time. But nobody ‘invented’ that rule
11:10:07 From beatrizramos to Everyone: When Venezuela became really dangerous people knew they could not respect the red light or they could get robbed or kidnapped. At some point the traffic lights became blinking yellow lights at night so people could decide.
11:10:28 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Jean Go. Then I have a follow up
11:10:40 From Guy James to Everyone: yes my ex who is from Venezuela told me about that – she would never stop at a red light in Caracas
11:11:33 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: I bet Caracas is by far worse than Thailand
11:11:44 From Guy James to Everyone: for sure
11:11:50 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: Driving, I mean
11:11:54 From Guy James to Everyone: yes
11:11:55 From beatrizramos to Everyone: Thailand is more messy, but Venezuela is more dangerous
11:12:02 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: Brazil is the same regarding red lights, especially at night
11:13:28 From Brad to Everyone: Three kisses in NL vs two elsewhere
11:13:46 From Collin Mcclain to Everyone: There is a collisions I am thinking about between the legal (top down) rules and the cultural (bottom up).
11:13:53 From Guy James to Everyone: I heard in Mexico one uses the indicators to show the car behind that they can now overtake. In other countries the indicator usually means ‘I am about to overtake’. This causes a lot of confusion to tourists I think
11:14:04 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: Haha that is right. The three kisses
11:14:05 From jean m russell to Everyone: Isn’t it a one kiss, two kisses, three, and even four?
11:14:25 From Guy James to Everyone: I tell Dutch people I’m only going to do 2 kisses
11:14:30 From jean m russell to Everyone: 🙂
11:14:36 From Guy James to Everyone: in some regions of France it can be 4
11:14:42 From beatrizramos to Everyone: Toyota should make cars without honks
11:15:00 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: Hahahhaha unthinkable for a venezuelan
11:15:26 From jean m russell to Everyone: Cultural dexterity…
11:15:42 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: I found that someone flashing lights in Bangalore always means ‘get out of my way, I’m not stopping’
11:16:02 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Cultural diplomacy
11:16:08 From Guy James to Everyone: hope you didn’t find out the hard way Sparrow
11:16:09 From jean m russell to Everyone: Sensitivity for interaction signals
11:16:59 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Thank you everyone for letting me go early and share for 11 mins. Appreciate you all.
11:17:02 From jean m russell to Everyone: After Marlon, can we go back to the order: Jamison, Imma, and then Brad?
11:17:19 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Haha… It was one of the reasons I stopped driving a car there and moved to moped. 🙂
11:17:27 From jean m russell to Everyone: Welcome Turquoise.
11:17:33 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: Easier to get out of the way (and wind through traffic)
11:17:47 From Jamison M. Day, Ph.D. to Everyone: I need to drop, unfortunately. Herman, great material!
11:18:03 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Jamison. Sorry we didn’t get to your question
11:18:08 From Guy James to Everyone: yes moped is a lot safer in many cities
11:20:32 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Cultural Note to Self: I owe Jamison a “space ahead” token… reciprocally… through reciprocity.
11:21:49 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: (Intrinsically motivated)
11:21:57 From Sid to Everyone: Have to drop off too.. Thanks Herman, thanks everyone! Gn.
11:22:08 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Thanks Sid — Bye!
11:22:40 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Erin Meyer’s Work on The Culture Map that I referenced
11:22:41 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRBpwjdk7dw
11:22:41 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Turquoise. Jamison and Herman have had some 1:1 chats about this stuff too, so they can privately continue if they want.
11:24:06 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Simulate simulate
11:24:47 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: I have to hop for my next meeting prep
11:24:51 From Turquoise [TaoTeTurquoise.Com] to Everyone: Thank you everyone!
11:24:52 From jean m russell to Everyone: Gratitude
11:26:13 From jean m russell to Everyone: Terrance Deacon
11:26:49 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Terence deacon
11:26:54 From jean m russell to Everyone: thanks
11:27:12 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Terrance
11:29:03 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Will quickly get out of my understanding, but a couple things that come up for me in this discussion are 1) Wolfram and automaton 2) Ashby’s law of requisite variety
11:29:36 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: What is a human? A moving target of an ongoing social contruction
11:29:48 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Thanks Herman! I’ve gotta drop.
11:30:00 From beatrizramos to Everyone: The problem with children playgrounds is that are designed by utterly unimaginative people
11:30:07 From Collin Mcclain to Everyone: Playgrounds: http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/city/architecture/217111-bob-leathers-playgrounds
11:30:22 From Howard Silverman to Everyone: Gotta go. Thanks Herman.
11:30:39 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Map and territory conflation
11:31:05 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: Peter Woit (writer on time and math)\
11:31:41 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Art is all a social construction…
11:31:41 From jean m russell to Everyone: Brad?
11:33:06 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: ART FULL of imagination is a romantic view of ART ( from German romanticism).
11:33:30 From jean m russell to Everyone: Dada itself is an exploration, yes?
11:33:38 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: I have a local FB page strictly on Playgrounds with over 1,000 members. 🙂 I could try some things there. 🤷‍♂️
11:33:50 From jean m russell to Everyone: Cool Dave!
11:33:52 From beatrizramos to Everyone: Yes DADA is a playground
11:34:04 From beatrizramos to Everyone: No gamification needed
11:34:42 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: DADA is also a great emergent coordination space.
11:34:46 From Guy James to Everyone: this is about the Commons Stack token economy simulator, might be interesting in this context https://medium.com/commonsstack/the-commons-simulator-game-is-live-e1986615a105
11:35:23 From Brad to Everyone: Great Guy and Dave
11:35:37 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: No one *has* to draw in any particular way, but people do coordinate with the previous drawing in the conversation.
11:35:45 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Have to get going. Thank you everyone!
11:35:53 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Dave
11:37:38 From Brad to Everyone: Gotta run, thanks
11:37:45 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Brad
11:38:39 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: I think it may not be that we’re lacking imagination, I think that as a culture we actually don’t value it.
11:39:18 From jean m russell to Everyone: What does anyone count as imaginative and is that imaginative to someone or anyone else?
11:39:54 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: It takes conscious effort to approach a solution NOT with a platform or functional hierarchy as a model to solve the issue. It is unlearning.
11:40:21 From Sparrow Read to Everyone: For sure, there is a ton of unlearning to do.
11:40:34 From jean m russell to Everyone: Agree Herman…undoing the deep assumptions about what the process is and how the process has embedded criteria
11:41:25 From jean m russell to Everyone: “Civilized”
11:42:50 From beatrizramos to Everyone: agree
11:43:29 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: But…simple principles for interaction spaces can be cross-cultural: like the tokens in Japanese parks to manage the amount of people in the park.
11:43:29 From jean m russell to Everyone: And, a bunch of what gets listed as European Enlightenment or US neoliberalism can also be hiding a ton of indigenous wisdom in it too, so seeing that underneath is valuable too
11:44:39 From Guy James to Everyone: good point Jean. It’s all entangled.
11:45:03 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: We are sitting in a mess…
11:45:07 From Lenara Verle to Everyone: “the dawn of everything” book brings that it’s quite interesting
11:45:09 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: Oh yes: so much has been appropriated by ” victors” everywhere
11:45:18 From jean m russell to Everyone: nods
11:45:32 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: But Imma has a point, not about reading, but about the contract.
11:45:53 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: intersections
11:46:36 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Postcolonial histories…
11:46:54 From jean m russell to Everyone: Yes, having things written down shapes behavior
11:47:41 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: Rituals matter
11:48:39 From jean m russell to Everyone: As we move from mechanistic to humanistic, discovering how irrational humans are —can be quite helpful. Persuasion, behavioral economics, moral concerns….
11:48:51 From beatrizramos to Everyone: Thanks so much Herman! Bye everyone!
11:49:19 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Systems designs, mechanisms….who is designing and the emergent systems…
11:49:50 From Herman Wagter (host) to Everyone: Emergent behavior : either by accident, or by conscious design
11:49:56 From jean m russell to Everyone: Might actually be a useful Salon Series to do on the various approaches to working with irrational humans
11:50:09 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Thank you so much… everybody!!
11:50:31 From Guy James to Everyone: could you share the chat in MN please Jean

Distributed Governance: Integration and Conclusion

09:11:41 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: C … is for cookie?
09:13:51 From Brad to Everyone: perceive-decide-act relate is comparable to OODA observe orient decide act.
09:23:38 From jean m russell to Everyone: Sid: governance within or how about between?
09:24:49 From jean m russell to Everyone: Common goals, ground, and common defense…
09:27:33 From ilan to Everyone: settling
09:27:41 From Guy James to Everyone: opine
09:27:47 From ilan to Everyone: arriving
09:28:42 From ilan to Everyone: deliberation
09:28:55 From ilan to Everyone: we deliberate until it feels right
09:29:09 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: Sensitivity
09:29:24 From solsista to Everyone: but people are so afraid to take time ….
09:30:29 From ilan to Everyone: i think sensitivity is a prerequisite to deliberation
09:30:47 From solsista to Everyone: personal and collective mandalas
09:31:21 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Love the idea of collective mandalas re: sensemaking
09:31:21 From solsista to Everyone: exactly “how do you schedule that?”
09:31:55 From solsista to Everyone: “how do you record the collective sense-making outcome” the resonant space
09:32:14 From solsista to Everyone: any answers? experiences?
09:32:36 From solsista to Everyone: what Bea us going into is “Bohm Dialogues”
09:32:50 From solsista to Everyone: it’s not a debate of opinions
09:33:26 From solsista to Everyone: but the collective effort, coming in with the sensitivity /humility that I only have one limited perspective, like everyone else
09:33:32 From Guy James to Everyone: the Bohm and Krishnamurti talks were very nice enquiries
09:33:40 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: +1 Bohm
09:33:48 From solsista to Everyone: and when we really exchange we get to an insight that is new for all participants
09:34:54 From jean m russell to Everyone: Embodied – as in what takes form (not just what is inside your body)
09:34:59 From solsista to Everyone: I’m weary of “identity”, “tribes” because that identification is as much of a hindrance as “my truth”
09:35:46 From ilan to Everyone: can we cross embody with oral traditions?
09:36:01 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Embodiment is relational
09:36:15 From jean m russell to Everyone: I hear that Solsista. I was moved by Survival of the Friendliest on this. And the role of Oxytocin (see also Behave).
09:36:22 From ilan to Everyone: oral traditions begin with that no?
09:37:03 From jean m russell to Everyone: Signal – might be one directional. Conversation is a loop.
09:37:44 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: oh, Marlon – embodiment as relational. (Eric – the unit is a conversation) I like this idea of embodiment as relational.
09:38:14 From ilan to Everyone: That’s exactly it
09:38:30 From ilan to Everyone: safe dissent
09:38:39 From ilan to Everyone: 😄
09:38:48 From solsista to Everyone: there’s a phrase “creative dissent”
09:39:11 From ilan to Everyone: as opposed to ‘constructive’ dissent
09:39:21 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: I’d change some of the terms, but I’ve used this before in difficult conversations…
https://www.themarginalian.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/
09:39:21 From ilan to Everyone: or tandem with?
09:44:10 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: Also… decisions based on consent vs consensus
09:44:43 From Brad to Everyone: Convergence is a process toward alignment
09:46:40 From solsista to Everyone: new language
09:47:02 From jean m russell to Everyone: Sensitive sensemaking
09:47:25 From jean m russell to Everyone: Unseen contextual Coalescing
09:48:00 From jean m russell to Everyone: Scaffold v scale
09:48:04 From solsista to Everyone: totally! scaffold vs scale
09:48:11 From solsista to Everyone: haha
09:48:34 From solsista to Everyone: it’s scary how little practical self-organization knowledge exists!
09:49:04 From Brad to Everyone: Ann can you spell that Nora word?
09:49:22 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: https://nancystarksmith.com/underscore/
09:49:31 From jean m russell to Everyone: Underscore – the patterns that emerge through improvising together
09:50:22 From jean m russell to Everyone: Glyphs of interactions of embodied processes
09:50:54 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: https://nancystarksmith.com/underscore/
09:51:00 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thank you
09:51:06 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzG609NWp1Y
09:51:07 From solsista to Everyone: yes Marlon!
09:51:18 From solsista to Everyone: you need to come to DADA system model
09:51:43 From solsista to Everyone: @Bea 🙂 I think this model can make sense for developers
09:51:57 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: In addition… Viola Spolin and Neva Boyd are some folks to look up regarding (acting) improv.
09:52:00 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: What is the pattern that connects
09:52:10 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: Thank you Marlon. This looks really interesting.
09:52:11 From solsista to Everyone: because movement is mechanical
09:52:15 From solsista to Everyone: yet dynamic!!!!
09:52:20 From solsista to Everyone: and utterly human
09:52:46 From beatrizramos to Everyone: Thank you Marlon
09:52:55 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Thank you Marlon!
09:53:13 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Glyphs
09:54:04 From jean m russell to Everyone: I had planned to have you break into small groups to discuss. I know Bea doesn’t want that. Can I get a read on what y’all want? Open Field? Small group?
09:54:05 From ilan katin to Everyone: we like a good mess
09:54:16 From ilan katin to Everyone: open plz
09:54:40 From Brad to Everyone: open
09:54:48 From ilan katin to Everyone: in the spirit of what we are talking about now . the way
09:54:53 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: feels like we have a flow going in open
09:54:59 From jean m russell to Everyone: <3
09:55:07 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: open
09:55:39 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: open
09:55:52 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Situated action in spaces of affordances
09:57:14 From jean m russell to Everyone: Dancing with Systems
09:57:44 From solsista to Everyone: https://donellameadows.org/archives/dancing-with-systems/
09:58:45 From jean m russell to Everyone: <3 <3 <3
09:59:39 From jean m russell to Everyone: Dave: both individuals and groups and relationship between.
09:59:50 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Ubuntu
09:59:56 From beatrizramos to Everyone: Yes!
10:00:01 From jean m russell to Everyone: I am sitting with “intersubjective ethics”
10:00:04 From Imma to Everyone: I love emotions. Underestimated brain children, our emotions…
10:00:36 From jean m russell to Everyone: And think about the web of people and multiple communities we are embedded in. Many venns.
10:01:38 From jean m russell to Everyone: Relationships between parts are so important.
10:02:12 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: the ship of Theseus embodied relationships edition
10:02:16 From Eric Harris-Braun to Everyone: http://emergingleaderlabs.org/Gameshifting_Overview

https://www.magic-flight.com/pub/uvsm_1/sgrp_small_group_2.pdf
10:02:18 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: space
10:02:19 From jean m russell to Everyone: What is the grammar of agility to shift patterns
10:04:10 From Guy James to Everyone: https://jimruttshow.blubrry.net/the-jim-rutt-show-transcripts/transcript-of-ep-153-forrest-landry-on-small-group-method/
10:04:41 From jean m russell to Everyone: Democracy only about changing forms?
10:04:47 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Based on embodied cognition processes: Dynamic gestalts (recomposition) combines with grammars.
10:05:06 From Dave Wolf to Everyone: In-group vs out-group via Graeber?
10:06:48 From Marlon Barrios Solano to Everyone: Environment and navigation/game context
10:06:50 From Howard Silverman to Everyone: Gotta go. Thanks Jean and all!
10:07:02 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Thank you Howard!
10:07:09 From jean m russell to Everyone: Grammar and embodiment
10:07:19 From Adriana Genel to Everyone: Bye, Howard, Thank you🌻
10:09:21 From jean m russell to Everyone: Perceived proximities
10:10:14 From Sid Sthalekar to Everyone: Late here, so will have to drop off 🙁 Thank you all for this! 🙏 Much appreciated.
10:10:19 From jean m russell to Everyone: Thanks Sid
10:10:26 From Melissa Fierce to Everyone: Thank you, Sid.
10:11:06 From Ann Badillo to Everyone: Language…new pattern language
10:11:15